Talk:Harp

Perpendicular?

Why are the strings of the harp described as perpendicular to the soundboard? Perpendicular means a 90° angle. In the illustration those strings join the soundboard at an acute angle of less than 90°. Caeruleancentaur (talk) 23:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

The wording may be awkward. The way I read it was in opposition to a guitar or violin, where the strings are definitely parallel to the soundboard. But is the frame of a harp synonymous with the soundboard? What I (perhaps too narrowly) think of as a soundboard seems to be missing from harps. Rivertorch (talk) 07:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

hello

hi am just looking 4 inspiration 4 a competition and was wondering if u cud help the idea is 2 creat a mascot 4 finn harps fc ani ideas??????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.13.94 (talk) 17:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

how it works

I could not come up with a better name so please change it to something better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.75.154 (talk) 23:30, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

How about "Structure and mechanism"? I reworded a little and removed the part about the 26th century B.C., which contradicts what's already in the article. The info on dates of origin needs to be sourced. Rivertorch (talk) 06:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Use in music...

"French composers such as Claude Debussy and Maurice Ravel composed harp concertos and chamber music widely played today"

My memory may fail me but I don't remember any harp concerto from either Debussy or Ravel. In fact, the only harp works I can come up with for these two are Debussy's Chansons de Bilitis and Sonata en trio, and Ravel's introduction and allegro. Could someone tell me if I'm missing something obvious? 128.194.39.250 (talk) 04:48, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The Debussy concerto is the Dances sacree et profane, which is one of the most popular concertos for harp. It was originally written for chromatic harp but Renie transcribed it for pedal harp very shortly after its premiere. 128.164.117.176 (talk) 18:45, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Percussion?

Could we get a better source for the harp being considered a percussion instrument than one harpist/instructor saying it is? It seems as logical as a guitar being a percussion instrument. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The "percussion" reference seems to have been removed -  Done

--D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 02:36, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

• This classification is controversial; e.g. Piston places the harp with the percussion section, Forsyth with the strings. Generally accepted scoring practice is to place the harp and the celesta, guitar, piano, etc. in their own subsection between the percussion section and the strings, which gets around the problem nicely. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 02:36, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Playing range

The standard range of the concert harp is C♭1 to G♯7, not C♮1 (or D♮1) to G♮7. I feel that this needs correction. --Number Googol (talk) 02:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The article apparently describes the range with all of the pedals in their middle positions. I'm not sure why. If you count pedal adjustments, there is indeed an extra half-step at both the bottom and the top of the range. But even if we state only the standard range, without counting the pedals, it should be stated as C♭1 to G♭7. So you're right; it needs to be changed. Go for it. (And cite a source, if you would.) Rivertorch (talk) 05:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Concert harp

I just wanted to find an article on the modern orchestral harp, so I entered the word "harp" and got to this page of course. I then had to look right down to find the marvellous *section* "concert harp" on the modern orchestral harp, with description of how it works, diagrams, photo.

If I enter "concert harp" or "orchestral harp" in wikipedia I get taken to "pedal harp". This page duplicates to a large extent the good section in this article, and in my opinion not as good as the section I mentioned.

There is duplication and incompleteness. There could be a really good article on the modern orchestral harp (with the section mentioned as a starting point), but the material is distributed between "Concert harp" and "Pedal harp" articles.

The main picture at the top in both articles shows a nice medieval harp but the one next to it was only "modern" about 150 years ago. It looks like Queen Victoria used it. P0mbal (talk) 22:05, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup

I am considering adding a cleanup tag to this article, or trying a major clean up. There are a number of big sections that duplicate content on other pages (e.g. concert harp, clarsach). There is also a large amount of non-encyclopedic trivia especially under concert harp.

I am proposing to re-arrange the categorisation, so as to give a short succinct overview of harp traditions in each region of the world, with links to their specific pages. Also to remove anything more than this and place it onto the relevant specific pages.

Also to shorten the introduction section and make it more general and less western-classical in content and approach.

If anyone has any thoughts or opinions on this please let me know before I start on it.

StrumStrumAndBeHanged (talk) 14:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Ancient Egypt

Just noting that today's featured article in German Wikipedia is about harps in ancient Egypt (de:Harfner_(Altes_Ägypten)), which ha sno parallel article heer. Perhaps someone is interested to translate some content for use on this page here. --Pjacobi (talk) 07:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Nabla (instrument)

Nabla (instrument) redirects here. Nabla states: "A Hebrew stringed instrument after which that symbol was named, see harp". There should be something about this thing in Harp (or in Nabla (instrument)). -- Tomdo08 (talk) 15:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Organology

Guitars, lyres, and kitharae are not zithers. There are four basic subgroups under the Chordophone family: harps, zithers, lutes. and lyres. Guitars go with the lutes, and kitharae go with the lyres. I cleaned up the Terminology section to fix this. 67.206.165.1 (talk) 06:02, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup efforts

I agree that the ancient, Celtic, (folk?) and pedal harp pages should receive an overhaul, with the main "Harp" page serving more as a general overview; I wouldn't mind contributing, especially to the section on pedal harps, and can provide some assistance with references. Actually, I'm willing to clean it up on my own if necessary, though it's always nice to have assistance with an ambitious project.

Does anyone have any valid suggestions, or was it simply a convenient page to stage arguments over where the darn thing originated? As a student harpist myself, I'm fairly annoyed at how bad this page is; the harp has to put up with enough misconceptions already. Has anyone realized that the only photos in the "pedal/concert harp" section are NOT of a modern pedal harp, but of an early, experimental model and a folk harp? It's an embarrassment.

So, in essence; does anyone even care anymore? Stelarinna (talk) 02:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

We care Stelarinna, really. Be bold, and happy editing. RashersTierney (talk) 05:34, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 02:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Salzedo Bias?

Being a harpist of the French method I have chosen not to make any changes to the article regarding Technique (specifically the paragraph regarding Salzedo). However I feel the paragraph desperately needs editing to remove bias towards the Salzedo method. This section portrays the French method as a stuffy outdated technique and paints the Salzedo method as the modern and therefore superior method of playing. Both methods are equally viable for harpists, as technique is individual to the player. The paragraph is heavily in praise of Salzedo and is not objective. If another harpist can see their way to writing an unbiased Harp#Technique section they would be making the article more informative for prospective students and enthusiasts. 14.201.0.119 (talk) 23:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Well this is the general Harp article, not the pedal harp article, so surely a section on technique should equally cover all kinds of harp technique equally: African, Asian, south American, Irish, etc. - this article should be a general overview of different types of harp from around the world, with links off to their specific pages, not loaded up on technical detail on specific regional or cultural types such as the Western orchestral pedal harp. To be honest, harp techniques around the world and through history are so diverse I don't see how a general "Harp" article can possibly have a section on "technique". StrumStrumAndBeHanged (talk) 21:05, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Recent amendments re pedals, strings, fifth finger & technique

I've just made some amendments re pedal harps. I've added information re the missing pedal mechanism on the lowest C&D strings and (on most harps) on the highest G string. The pedal harp mechanism is complicated enough, so this information usually gets left out when discussing how the pedals work, but that can lead to ambiguities re the harp's range. Ideally I would like to replace the range illustration used here (C flat to G sharp) with the one used on the pedal harp page (C natural-D-natural to G natural) as a) we don't normally include scordatura options on other string instrument ranges and b) the illustration used on the pedal harp page has the benefit of pointing out that there is a missing semitone between the lower C and D strings however you tune them - but I see that there has already been discussion on this page re the range illustration, so I have left it as it is. I've used Inglefield and Neill as a reference.

I've also added some information re the use of the fifth finger under Modern European and American Instruments, with references.

I've changed the mention of the upper middle to upper strings being made of nylon to "either gut or nylon" but I can't find a reference for this. However, all my non-wire strings are gut, right to the top, and if you order Bow Brand strings, at least, you need to specify either gut or nylon for the upper registers.

I've been relatively bold re the technique section. I agree with the comment above re Salzedo bias, and I've cut out details of his biography, his playing and compositional style and harp designing etc, which don't really relate to technique, and added some examples of his theory. I've also removed some bits from the French technique part - the thumb is not really low relative to the hand - it's still kept well above the rest of the hand - it's just low relative to the Salzedo technique. I've also removed the reference to musical choices, which seems unfounded and inappropriate. I haven't been so bold as to remove the section entirely, although I have some sympathy with StrumStrumandbeHanged's point above. However, given the rancour that occasionally exists (particularly in the US) between different schools, it's likely that people might approach Wikipedia looking for information. Mohntorte (talk) 01:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Origins Of Harp-Persia

Mandanabeygi:Wikipedia Chinese translation "Origins Of Harp" Persia is not mentioned.Seems ‎like "the Persian harp of Perspolis/Persia in Iran " is not translated at all,and "File:Harp-‎Sassanid.png|Ancient Persian harps carved in stone" is not attached ‎also.<http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B1%8E%E7%90%B4>.‎维基百科(英文)上提到的是“竖琴出现在古波斯”PERSIA-IRAN伊朗<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp> ‎该文还有足够的照片和历史资料证明竖琴是古波斯（现在的伊朗）的乐器。and also on chinese free encyclopedia website called baidu "Persia/Iran" is not mentioned as the origin of Harp,which I wrote to them and hope it would be added to the article and it will be edited as soon as possible.Mandanabeygi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mandanabeygi (talk • contribs) 13:01, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Structure and Mechanism Illustration

The illustration for this section appears to include black (or very dark) text on a black (or very dark) background. Completely unreadable. Since the image appears to be a computer generation, would someone care to change the text to /white/ (or some other lighter color) so that it can actually be seen? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.92.174.105 (talk) 23:45, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Tamil Harp (transliteration)

To the person who added the contribution on the Tamil harp (or any other person who would happen to know Tamil): the contribution uses two different transliterations for the word யாழ் (harp) namely yaal and yaazh (that is, they transliterate the letter ழ் in two different ways namely 'l' and 'zh'). This can be confusing for people who do not know Tamil. Please make up your mind. Pick one or the other. Thank you. Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 09:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok. I've waited and waited... No one fixed it. So I did. Don't worry about this any longer. Thanks anyways. Signed: Basemetal (write to me here) 23:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Section 6.3 Wire-strung instruments ("clàrsach")

Section 6.3 ought to be moved. It doesn't make sense to leave it in the "Modern European and American instruments" section. It should be moved to the historical part, namely "Development and history". Please state any objection here. Contact Basemetal here 15:00, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Passage reads like advertising

For what it's worth, it seems to me that the fourth paragraph of #Folk, lever, and Celtic instruments reads like an advertising piece promoting Allan Shiers' Teifi semi tone.

“ One of the attendant problems with lever harps is the potential loss of quality when the levers are used. The Teifi semi tone developed by Allan Shiers is a development from traditional mechanisms and nips up the string with two forks similarly to a concert harp. The semi tone is double locking for a full clear sound and does not wear the string. It is machined from solid brass and hardened steel and is adjustable by an eccentric roller to suit any gauge of string. In addition, the whole unit can be moved up or down to affect perfect pitch and string alignment. The lever arms are coloured for ease of note recognition and two sizes are made to suit treble, mid and bass. ”

--Kevjonesin (talk) 12:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Major cleanup needed

This article has gotten into a pretty sorry state, though I can see where a number of editors have jumped in to make some needed improvements. Should we list here some ideas for how best to structure the article, and then dig into getting it fixed? Here are a few suggestions of mine. Feel free to add to the list and sign with three "~" tildes.

• "Clarsach" and generally the "Celtic" section is way too long, needs to be merged into the subject article, and/or into modern coverage or historical coverage of the Celtic harp MatthewVanitas (talk) Done
• Untangle the lede, ensure that we don't have too much dense organological taxonomy stuff right up front. MatthewVanitas (talk) Done
• Start matching all the classical harp stuff up with the main article, front-load the detailed into into the more specific article and greatly trim this section back to the essentials. MatthewVanitas (talk)  Done
• Organize the Indian sections of "Origins" to ensure we don't have undue detail, have some basic citations, etc. MatthewVanitas (talk)  Done
• "Multi-course harps" has way too much detail for an overview article, needs trimming back to fundamental details and excess moved to subject articles MatthewVanitas(talk)  Done
• The photo of the medieval harp with bray pins is dark and hard to see, needs to be replaced with a related and clearer image. MatthewVanitas (talk)

Update: got most of the stuff knocked out, there's just some Euro-Celtic stuff in the middle that's quite a tangle right now. Anybody want to take a squint at how those can be trimmed down, flow improved, etc? After that, it's just a matter of gradually upgrading the photos, improving citations (and removing poor/dead ones).

Once we get it more fine-tuned, I'd really like to solicit outside reviewers to see if we can bump this up to at least a B, if not higher. It's really a dang shame that an article on such a fundamental instrument has dragged down over the years. MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:27, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

New "Classification" section?

It might be useful to have a comprehensive "Classification" section to list all the types and subtypes of harps (and those that have "harp" in the name but aren't considered harps). "Terminology and etymology" has some of this, the lead has some, and some are in the various other sections. What does everyone think? Facts707 (talk) 17:10, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

• I agree, and as part of this it needs to be made clear what the a priori definition of "harp" being used is. The requirement that the strings be "perpendicular to the sounding board" is arbitrary, imprecise, and is not met by some harps described in the article (e.g. cross-strung); this shortcoming has been commented on earlier on this page (Perpendicular?). E.g., the Madagascar valiha is commonly referred to as a harp, but Wikipedia classes it as a Zither; I think most musicians would regard it as a harp as the strings are vertical and the playing position is harp-like, whereas the archetypical zither is flat and played horizontally. I am not saying the article is wrong, just that it needs to be very clear at the start what the criteria are that determine that an instrument is a harp, and where this systematic classification comes from. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 02:06, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

proper name for the harp usually held by cherubs

looking for names of harps pictured with cherubs

thanks in advancr---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.200.245.62 (talk) 10:20, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Do you mean cherubs or angels?Vorbee (talk) 19:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Mathematics of harps

Need a section identifying typical string weights & tensions and resulting lengths for needed notes, which results in harp's shape.71.230.16.111 (talk) 02:16, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

• Other than the implications for the harps shape this is covered in String instrument#Changing the pitch of a vibrating string and in Mersenne's laws. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:06, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Adding the yazh in types of harp

In the Types of harp section,can i add the yazh as a type of harp,as it even says that it is a type of harp on this article? Simulator-master (talk) 08:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC)